Creating Value In Schools
Listen to the recording (26 minutes) or read an edited version below. Nickii Messer of All the Geese is a school business management and leadership specialist, providing training, development and mentoring expertise. Liz: It's wonderful to be with Nickii Messer, long term champion for the school business management profession. Now, I know that Nickii has a particular topic she wants to dig into today. So Nickii, what's on your mind? Nickii: It was hard to choose because there's so many things, but one of the things that's absolutely central in all of the mentoring work that I do with school business professionals, is those thorny conversations. Difficult, thorny, challenging, courageous conversations. Liz: Before we go further, I wanted to ask about terminology. Do you generally prefer to talk about difficult conversations? Courageous conversations? Does it matter what we call them? Nickii: Actually it does. And I'm so glad you've asked that because I've deliberately said those words: thorny, difficult, courageous. I think when we talk about difficult conversations, challenging conversations, courageous conversations, it sets up an assumption that it is going to be difficult, that it's going to be something we've got to brace ourselves for. Whereas ‘honest’ is much more, ‘this is happening, we're going to get to the truth of something’. It just feels more positive. It feels as if it's something that we can develop rather than conflict. It’s about developing a relationship, it's about developing somebody's work, it's about the truth So let's call them honest conversations. Liz: Why is it then that we do avoid them? You've mentioned conflict… What makes us put them off? Nickii: It's the fact that we assume it's going to be difficult. We build it up in our heads. And so we put it off a little bit. And then it builds and we have sleepless nights worrying about it and it builds a bit more. Interestingly, I've just had a meeting with somebody who themselves said, ‘Oh, I've got to have a conversation with somebody and I've been putting it off and putting it off. I don't like conflict. I don't like argument. I don't want to upset anybody.’ So, I think that basically, we build these things up in our minds instead of saying, this is an honest conversation, it's about developing a relationship, it's about developing somebody's work, it's about the truth. It's about the life chances and wellbeing of the children in the school. We have taxpayers money given to us to pay for this most important, most expensive resource in the school: the people. And they are there for the life chances and wellbeing of the children. And therefore, we have to have these conversations to make sure that everybody is working at their very, very best. Liz: And there are risks if we don’t have those conversations, aren’t there? The more it's put off, sometimes the bigger the problem gets. Nickii: Brian Tracy has written a lovely book, Eat That Frog. It's one of my favourites. What Brian Tracy says is that if you're going to eat a frog, get on and eat it, because it's just going to get bigger and uglier and wartier. And these conversations need to happen because they're just going to get harder. Let’s imagine somebody's coming in late to work every single day. And six months down the line, somebody says to you, you've got to tackle that. You call that person into your office and say to them, ‘You've been coming in late every day for the last six months. This has got to stop’. Rightly, they could turn around and say, ‘Why are you mentioning this now? The last six months it seemed ok. No one's mentioned it to me.’ You should ooze values It's about our leadership credibility too. Because you know what? It's like ripples in a pond. If we don't have those conversations, people are looking at us. They're noticing that we haven't had those conversations. They're making it their business. Even if it's not their business, and it's our leadership credibility. Liz: So we need to have these honest conversations. How can we prepare for them? Any tips on gearing ourselves up for an honest conversation? Nickii: It’s like building a house. If you were building a house on shifting sands and it gets even a little bit stormy out there, that house is going to move and it's going to shift around and it's likely to fall down. So we need to build solid foundations first, and for me the solid foundation is trust. People need to trust us, and incidentally if you're going to ask people to trust you, you need to trust them too. I always feel trust is a two way thing. We need people to know that if we have an honest conversation with them, that we're being fair, that we're being ethical, that we have the right values, that we share those values. Everything we do is for the life chances of the children in the school Incidentally, the word courage comes from heart. Cour, the old English or French for heart. So it's having the right things at the very heart of our conversations. That we are approachable, we're safe, and we'll do what we say we do. Life chances and wellbeing of the children, that should be central to everything. But not when you have that honest conversation. It should be central to everything up to that point, and including that point, and beyond that point. Every conversation should be, what's the impact on the children? We should be talking about quality of service. We should be making sure that everybody understands that we are there to provide the highest quality of service for the wellbeing and life chances of the children. Then when things go wrong, which inevitably they will, when you're working with people, you can fall back on those conversations and say, remember, you know this, don't you? Everything we do is for the life chances of the children in the school. Now, how can we work together to resolve this so that we're back on track? But if you haven't built that foundation, you're a house on shifting sand. Liz: So, in a sense, being prepared for honest conversations is a daily thing because it's about your habits, values, and ongoing interactions. Nickii: It's exactly that. I say to school leaders – and everybody can be a leader, you don’t need that in your title – that you should ooze values. As you walk down the corridor, people should see that oozing from you. It's setting that standard and bringing people along with you. Liz: So, I've been doing that work, but nevertheless, there is a situation that I feel I need to have an honest conversation about. Are there any key things I can bear in mind when I'm heading into that conversation? A key to the actual meeting is listening, and listening to understand Nickii: Take a breath and remember it's an honest conversation. It's professional. The reason why you're having this conversation? It’s because we want the highest quality of service. Consider the other person. Don't call a meeting with a colleague and jump straight in to catch the person out. Empower them, don't disempower them. Give them the information beforehand. ‘I need to talk to you about the fact that you've been coming in late recently. Can we meet on Thursday morning so that we can talk about it? At that meeting one of things I want to talk to you about is the impact it’s having on everybody else. What can we do to resolve it?’ So you're not looking for a rabbit in the headlights, you're giving them the information beforehand, giving them that level of respect. A key to the actual meeting is listening, and listening to understand. I think particularly for us in the school business profession, we listen to resolve. We're problem solvers. So what we need to do in those meetings is sit back, drop our shoulders, And listen to understand. Don't listen and think, Oh gosh, what can I come up with? What's a clever phrase? How can I resolve this? Just listen. And respect the fact that people work in different ways. There's a lot said about introverts and extroverts. Many introverts need time to reflect, and to think before they answer. So giving that information before the meeting will help them, but allowing there to be silences, allow those silences to go on in the meeting as long as that other person needs that silence to go on, so they've got clear thinking space. Often with extroverts they need to talk to get their thoughts out. And as they talk, they listen to themselves and think, oh no that's not quite right, and they may sound like they're having a bit of a conflict with themselves. Allow that to happen. Don't set too tight an agenda for that meeting. And really listen to understand. You may have made the assumption that the person is coming in late every week because they don’t care. They really don't care about the impact on the team, they've given up, they're not interested. The first rule of negotiation is win win But it could be because they've got somebody at home they're trying to look after. We just don't know and they may not have wanted to talk to us about that. We need to be collaborative, more, how can we resolve this? So it's not all on me, not what can I do, it's what can we do? Again, it comes back to trust. It comes back to the other person knowing that if you say that you mean it. We may well find ourselves negotiating. Always remember: the first rule of negotiation is win win. We should never go into a conversation thinking ‘I'm going to get this sorted, I'm not having this anymore’, because that makes you the winner and that makes them the loser, and then you've got an unhappy colleague. Bear in mind: is the problem down to skill or will? Is somebody lacking the skill to do what you need them to do? So this is an underperformance issue. Or is it lack of will? We may not have given them the training, the professional development or the support to encourage those skills. But equally, if it's a lack of will, maybe we've just not done enough to motivate them. I do think that as a line manager, we should look at ourselves. If something's not working right, the first thing I would do is look at myself and say, what have I not done that I should have done? Where's my responsibility? Liz: That really resonates with something I took away from some training I did a while ago. We talked about seeking the truth, and how if you don’t ask, you’ll never know. So, do you feel that it's possible for an honest conversation to be a fulfilling, positive experience? Nickii: Yes, and I would 100% say yes, and it jolly well should be. Every single conversation should be fulfilling. Do you want to be the person that resolves the problem, or do you want to be the person that avoided it? But equally, if there is a difficulty with a colleague, the likelihood is that they and/or other people will be unhappy too. And I don't want that. So yes, it's about getting the very best quality of service for the school, but it's also about everybody going away feeling that they have contributed their best and being proud of that. Formula One Grand Prix drivers will never win a race if their pit crew isn't the very, very best that it can be. And if having honest conversations helps those teams, those pit crews, to be the very best that they can be and have that greatest of job satisfactions, obviously, it's fulfilling. If someone else can do it, I can do it too They have to be the best. They have to have each other's back. None of them will ever say, that's not my job. They all look out for each other. And they get that great satisfaction. You should see them jump up and down when the driver wins the race, because they know they're part of it. And a driver winning a Formula One Grand Prix is nowhere near as important as the future life chances of the children in our schools! Liz: So Nickii, for those who would like to delve a bit more into this topic, have you got any recommended reads or listens? Anything that you've been reading recently that you'd like to share with people? Nickii: I always suggest keeping up your sleeve Fierce Conversations by Susan Scott because she really does tell us to search out our truth, to talk from our own perspective and to channel those emotions. We are so often told, don't be emotional about this, but sometimes you have really entrenched conversations or situations, where you’ve got to try and resolve something that's been going on for a long time. And Susan Scott is a master of that. The Chimp Paradox by Professor Steve Peters, because so often it's the imposter who is wittering away in our ear, telling us that we're not good enough, and that we’ll fail in that conversation. Continuing the theme, Ken Blanchard's book, The One Minute Manager Meets the Monkey, is helpful to help you understand how to delegate, avoid micromanaging, and supporting your team with all those sorts of things. Haley Dunn's book, The School Business Manager's Handbook. What Haley Dunn did, which I have such respect for, is go out to industry experts, and share their wisdom. I think it's Peter Neill who has written a part of the HR section in that book, which is all about handling difficult conversations. Anything about managing change, because one of the things that catches people out and causes conflict is not understanding a change that's happening or not buying into a change. Radical Candor: go to radicalcandor. com. I'm not even going to summarise it for you. I'm just going to say, go and read it. Liz: Thank you, Nickii, that's a really rich list. Any other final thoughts you want to share? Nickii: Believe in yourself. One of the things that has taken me through life is thinking if someone else can do it, I can do it too. So whether it's learning to be an HGV driver or having a difficult conversation, it's just looking out there and saying they can do it. Also, as a manager or leader, understand why it’s important and take the personal out of it. We can't be everybody's friend, but we can be a trusted, credible leader that people have faith in. And that's far more important than their friendship. So keep it professional, believe in yourself, make sure you're the right person to have the conversation, and get on and do it. Liz: That's wonderful. Thank you very much, Nickii, for that terrific advice. Disclosure: If you buy books linked to our site, we may earn a commission from Bookshop.org, whose fees support independent bookshops.Top takeaways
What’s in a name?
Avoidance tactics
Build the solid foundations
Empower and listen to understand
Skill or will?
Being the best we can be
Recommended reads
Believe in yourself
